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Sonder

Serious problem with the way certain staff handle things in TTT

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I've been running into more and more problems lately with staff who don't logically go through steps and events that lead up to reports, they instead just go ahead and read the report and decide on whether or not a person should be slain based off that.

 

Recently I killed a T while I was identifying bodies. At this time I had 11hp left from a previous fight with a T and while Identifying a body I heard a crowbar sound hitting the wall right behind me. Then after I looked at this person he tried to play off that he just missed me by asking me what I was doing so I shoot him in the head. He ends up being a T (who would've thought) which he then reports me and I explained the situation. Now I was slain because I was told that I have to wait until I am hit before I am allowed to shoot him, but the person who slayed me didn't bother to check that I was at 11hp. Then he goes forward to tell me that the HITTING and PUSHING of the crowbars are the same sound, yet you can't PUSH a wall with the crowbar, only hit, therefore this argument is also defeated within itself.

 

Furthermore, while I was explaining this to said staff member, he decided to belittle me by asking me if I knew what ROFL meant because I "keep using it but don't know what it means", to which after I proved that my reasoning for killing the T was correct, the slay was still acted upon and afterwards I was kicked from the server to not disrespect staff which leads to another point.

 

There is a staff member by the name of TootsieRoll who for some reason hates me and tries to do anything to get rid of me.

 

http://imgur.com/a/DmWMV  This is an album of what occurred after I came back from him kicking me for "disrespecting" the staff. He kicked me for spamming in the chat in all caps, when all i was doing was trying to explain to Slade fast enough so that he could remove the slay before the next round started but even after I showed I was right in doing what I did I was kicked.

 

So even after I was correct, I received no apology of any kind for slaying me or for kicking me. (Which I think is also a problem for many of the staff. I think I've only seen Lyn apologize when she's done something incorrectly but most of the time the majority of the staff don't make mistakes.)

 

I was on fairly late at night and TootsieRoll and Krimes were the only staff on at the time, I only been in the server for 30 seconds or so and have not even gotten to play a round and TootsieRoll says something along the lines of "Sonder why are you on you're going to ruin my night." like...what kind of comment is this. I was only on for such a short time what did I even do. The thing is that it didn't even sound like a joke either because after that he continued to just play the game with the other group of what I assume are the regulars of the "night time" server to which later he got off and Krimes was the only person on. (to which maybe because it was late at night he didn't care but he began ignoring reports too.)

 

So really the thing about "Disrespect" or respect in general is that it literally HAS to go both ways, your staff can't demand respect if they aren't giving it, I don't like having to play the game and not having fun cuz certain staff just bring a bad atmosphere.

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I agree that comments like "Sonder why are you on you're going to ruin my night." are definitely uncalled for, though I do not see that in any of the pictures you showed.

 

From the pictures you posted I see a staff aggravated with you for trying to prove it was not RDM.

 

There is a line in the rules, "at the current online staffs' discretion", that is put in there for a reason, we are trusted to use our best judgement based on the situation.

 

Even without seeing the situation first hand, from your story as to why you killed him, plain and simple that is RDM.

 

Just because you are low health doesn't give you the right to kill someone without any form of proof, and hitting a wall with a crowbar is not a traitorous act.

 

On another note, to any of the higher ups who happen to read this, I noticed Tails in chat in the pictures Sonder linked, saying the n-word numerous times, as well as encouraging others to say it.

 

I would like to find out if that was handled by any of the online staff at the time, considering the fact that I believe he is on the watchlist for doing that previously, and if it was not handled at the time then I feel it needs to be.

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Tails was kicked, although there is always times I hear multiple racial slurs being said during peak hours of server time and no one does anything so I have to mute them.

 

And even by that logic you're saying that since I'm basically 11hp I have to assume he was just "walking towards me with hilarious intentions to hit the wall next to me" while I'm over multiple dead bodies and I have to some how "hope" he doesn't miss a shot on me to which only THEN can I return fire at him. That doesn't make any sense at all, there comes a time when its better to use logic to kill people, than wait for shots to actually be fired. There is also a line in the rules that says "Use common sense"

 

The problem with the line in your rule is that I can't trust some of the staff because some of them obviously hate me and with such hate makes their judgments rather unfavorable for the victims.

 

Even in a situation where a player is shooting next to another player but not hitting him it is kosable, it's no different in this case especially since I was within a health range to be killed in one hit by a crowbar. If you are in a crowded area filled with people, do you sit and wait for the gunmen to shoot up multiple people before your mind clicks and says hes a bad person, or do you do something about it when you spot the actual threat.

 

The game is about identifying the Traitors, not assuming everyone is happy go lucky innocent do-gooders.

 

Player X walks out of room with unID dead body in it = Bad, gets killed for this

Player X shoots towards other players = Bad, gets killed for this

Player X hitting crowbar near player who is within death = Nope boys lets not assume anything on this guy he's definitely a model citizen. <-- This is where your logic falls through.

 

Why is it that only in the third situation we assume he didn't mean it and I RDM. Why can't we assume in the first case, that the player just "didn't see the body" or why can't we assume in the second case that because the player hasn't damaged anyone he's fine as well. In all three cases we can have a reasonable answer that can turn the player up as Innocent yet the first two are always KOS and the last one is RDM.

Edited by Sonder

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What I am saying is that you killed someone with absolutely no evidence that he was a traitor. If someone is T-baiting, ie shooting randomly at a wall, you have to warn them to stop T-baiting, if they continue then they can be KOSed.

 

T-baiting:  Well you have to give 3 warnings in a situation where someone is for example shooting into the air before you can kill them.  If you're in a situation where someone shoots in your direction no matter what weapon they're using you can kill them right then and there.

 

This is from another post but it states the rule for T-baiting. From what you said happened, he hit the wall, IF we were to treat this as if he had a gun (since you were at such low health) what you did is still RDM, because he did not try to hit you, he hit a wall.

 

In that case you would have had to warn him to stop T-baiting, if he continued to hit the wall after that, then you would have been in the right to kill him.

 

As for your problem with our 'at staff discretion' bit, if you feel that a staff member is targeting you out of hate, then you are more than free to bring it up in the forums and one of the head admins will check into the situation.

 

However, from this thread alone, I can say I personally feel it wouldn't have mattered which staff was online when this occurred, you would had argued the slay no matter who gave it, because you feel you were not in the wrong.

 

If you are in a crowded area filled with people, do you sit and wait for the gunmen to shoot up multiple people before your mind clicks and says hes a bad person, or do you do something about it when you spot the actual threat.
 

Player X walks out of room with unID dead body in it = Bad, gets killed for this

Player X shoots towards other players = Bad, gets killed for this

Player X hitting crowbar near player who is within death = Nope boys lets not assume anything on this guy he's definitely a model citizen. <-- This is where your logic falls through.

 

Why is it that only in the third situation we assume he didn't mean it and I RDM. Why can't we assume in the first case, that the player just "didn't see the body" or why can't we assume in the second case that because the player hasn't damaged anyone he's fine as well. In all three cases we can have a reasonable answer that can turn the player up as Innocent yet the first two are always KOS and the last one is RDM.
Just to clarify for you:

You CAN KOS for these actions.

  • Killing someone, and not identifying the body
  • Hiding an unidentified body

If someone walks past an un-ided body, or out of a room with the body, you cannot KOS them for it, you can call SUS on them and tell them to ID the body, but unless you saw them kill the person, not ID the body, and walk away it's not KOSable.

 

In TTT, just like its supposed to be in real life, you are innocent until proven guilty, or should be treated as such.

 

By your terms, if I feel suspicious about someone for any reason I have the right to kill them on the spot because they might be a traitor and it's only RDM if they end up being INNO.

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"If you're in a situation where someone shoots in your direction no matter what weapon they're using you can kill them right then and there." 

-He hit the crowbar in my direction, missed and hit the wall, so I killed him right then and there. Obeyed the rules clean cut right there, you even linked it for me.

 

 

As for your problem with our 'at staff discretion' bit, if you feel that a staff member is targeting you out of hate, then you are more than free to bring it up in the forums and one of the head admins will check into the situation.

-This is literally what the thread here is for...

 

-The thing is I wasn't in the wrong, they recognized me as being in the right AFTER the slay was given out, then no apology for doing so.

 

-There are several staff who would have deemed this situation as me also being in the right and not slaying me because they know the skill level I have within the game.

-Another problem is that what seems like "common sense" to me, is something that other players don't bother to think about while in the game, so they deem it as RDM.

 

In TTT, just like its supposed to be in real life, you are innocent until proven guilty, or should be treated as such.

-The problem with this statement is that in TTT you ALREADY know that there are traitors (unlike in real life), so not everyone is "innocent until proven guilty", everyone is instead "suspicious until proven innocent"...This is why you have testers and other means to become PROVEN.

 

By your terms, if I feel suspicious about someone for any reason I have the right to kill them on the spot because they might be a traitor and it's only RDM if they end up being INNO.

-This isn't the case, the situation is that he walks up to me while I'm IDing multiple bodies, instead of him contributing to IDing bodies as well, he instead crowbars at me so I shot him in the head. It wouldn't matter if he was Inno, T, Proven, or the detective, I would shoot anyone who does this.

 

If you want to treat it like real life though then why would I ever "warn" someone who is proving to be a threatening presence around others and not just taking action. Someone comes at you in real life swinging a crowbar and you have a gun, lets kindly warn him to stop and in that time he can close the gap on you and there you go you're done, so much for not taking a shot at him cuz he's only innocent until proven guilty.

Edited by Sonder

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Contrary to popular belief, the ideology that staff on the server have no idea what they're doing when it comes to slaying users couldn't be more wrong. In case that sentence flew over your head like a Boeing 747 (a very obvious object that does not need to be pointed out), allow me to point it out. Staff on the server know what they're doing. They're not too new to the game and they've been around the yard a time or two. Now, I know I might not be in the position to say that, but I'm a part of this community all the same. When it comes to Filty, Krimes, Lyn, Kat, and I, we know how it works. Allow me to address the problem at hand before I brown-nose any more.

 

It has come to my attention through various means that Sonder should in fact be on the watch list for his continuous disrespect of staff. I can't speak for Tootsie or anyone else who might have disrespected him right back, but as far as I'm concerned, he might be taking things out of context. As stated above, Sonder wrote that I "decided to belittle him" by simply asking if he knew what ROFL meant. Now, I'm not too sure about this, but if you're "belittled" as you say you are by such a simple question, and then even go so far as to not let me explain why it is I asked such a question, then how can we be too sure that what you say is correct.

 

Since you won't let me explain why I asked you what ROFL meant, maybe you'll read it here. The only reason I asked was because you use it everywhere. How can you say you're sorry or angry when you type in ROFL. It doesn't make sense and I was intrigued as to why it kept popping up.

 

Back to the task at hand. Even before I asked this question, I was called a "childish staff" and apparently "I had no idea what I was doing." Now, for some reason that didn't show up in the messages he sent as they were said earlier, and I don't have pictures of the event, mainly because I really didn't care about what was happening at the time. As far as I was concerned, it was an open-and-shut case. Some guy had a crowbar, hit the wall, Sonder killed him, report was made. I even viewed the death scene, as I try to do with every report, and I read the logs. Now, if you're going to assume that all I do is slay whoever is reported, you couldn't be more wrong. I will admit to not slaying some people who probably should have been slain simply because there's really no way to tell. I'm not too sure if you know this either, which you probably don't, but I also use the chat feature that comes with the RDM manager. Woah! Crazy right! I actually do my job. 

 

"Then he goes forward to tell me that the HITTING and PUSHING of the crowbars are the same sound, yet you can't PUSH a wall with the crowbar, only hit, therefore this argument is also defeated within itself." This is another thing I would like to address. See this is all wrong. This isn't what I told you and maybe if you paid just a little bit of attention, maybe you would realize that. I told you the push and the strike make the same animation. Not the same sound. I understand that one makes a sound and the other doesn't. As I said, not my first ttt game. I wasn't aware that he hit the wall at the time, but as stated above, even if he did hit the wall, still not kosable. 

 

Also you wrote that I recognized that you were in the right after the slay was given out. Haha, no. You see, Tootsie came to me to ask if I would apologize because you were throwing a hissy fit. I decided to swallow my pride and apologize, but the disrespect towards me continued and I decided against it.

 

One last thing. I've never met you before in the game. If I have, I never cared enough to notice. Last night was the first time that the name Sonder stuck out in my mind, simply because I have never seen someone put up such a fight for one slay on a round in which he was innocent. If you were slain on you're t round ok maybe, but dude, there's a time to stop. With this in mind, how can you say that I'm "targeting you" or that I'm "against you." You called me the worst staff member, childish, and you said that I ruined the game for you and even your night. I don't understand how you can seriously even begin to report me without taking a moment to think that "Ok, maybe I was in the wrong." Even when Tootsie kicked you, I didn't want you gone. I didn't want that kick. I wasn't for it. I have never kicked someone for disrespecting me, and that's because I don't let it get to me. It doesn't alter how I look at reports when it comes down to crunch time. 

 

I believe I have discussed everything that needs to, and I have explained what happened that night.

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Well...Ill put an end to this I suppose. Sonder, you are remaining on the watchlist for continued disrespect. I've been in game with you and seen staff have to deal with you prior to this incident. Just because you do not agree with the rules we have set, does not mean that you don't have to follow them. They are very clear. You cannot kill on suspicion alone. Even if you did only have 11 hp left, you killed the other player with no proof of them being a T. It doesn't matter if that person ended up being a T in the end either. The fact is you killed someone randomly. You could have warned him and put suspicion on him for possible T-Baiting...but nothing else. Had you have died - that would have sucked, but thats the game. You live sometimes, you die sometimes...but just because you want to live, does not mean you can kill someone just like that. Also, just to be clear, I was in there for the majority of this incident (through console). In fact, I'm the one that kicked Tails and gave him warning though admin chat and PMs.

 

All in all, just because you don't agree with my staff, does not mean they are doing their job improperly. As I said, I was in console for this and they did nothing incorrect..with the exception of Tootsie's comment(and ill be talking to her about that). The slay was proper as was the act of leaving you on the watchlist.

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Both of you just ignored literally every thing I just said in the points made.

 

Even after Aero linked the proper rules for T-Baiting set by Waggly which puts me in the right you still say I'm wrong.

 

Your memory is terribly wrong, because I only called you childish AFTER you refused to answer the questions and asked me what ROFL was twice.

 

I didn't give a "hissy fit" you were being obnoxiously rude over the mic as well as ignoring my points in the chat and asking me if I knew what ROFL was instead of addressing the problems. At what point in the report do you need to know what ROFL means in order for you to successfully answer anything? It's just pure deflection and lack of doing your job.

 

But cool do whatever you want it's your server. Add Sonder to watchlist and give staff slap on wrist while ignoring all valid points made in thread.

Edited by Sonder

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(This reply is not related to the problem.)
Got encouraged to say the n-word a lot of times by a guy who's spreading the Alex is a stupid n***er meme and repeating it until i got kicked. xD





 

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Let's just hope that people understand that disagreeing with a staff member, and disrespecting a staff member are two completely different things. Also may I note that just because they are a staff this does not mean they deserve any more or less respect than anyone else. All people are equals. So having someone on a watchlist for "Disrespect to staff" Isn't exactly a good reason. 

Thats just my opinion, feel free to hit me up anytime, Sonder, If you have anything you want to address. I can look into it for you.

 

~Blue

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